Monday, March 7, 2011

Tyranids - SinSynn's Riposte (Reposted)

Yeah, I'm hilarious.

Anyways, SinSynn said this:

Purgatus, I'm sorry to say that neither of those lists has enough killing power.
I know furious charging, preferred enemy poisonous 'gants sound great.
They're not.

Two Hive Tyrants can be avoided, blocked, fed speedbumps, etc.

The Tervigons and T-Fexes, Hive Guard, etc. are fine, but you need something besides the Gargoyles and 'Gants to handle your assaults. You don't honestly think you're going to outshoot other armies with the Tyranids, do you?
Sorry to say, but that looks like your plan.

Save the Parasite for fun games, as well. Or run in him in a list built around him.

Can I recommend that you maybe hit the Tyranid Forums at YtTH? Or go hit Synaps3 or Mid-Life-Gaming crisis-
for list ideas?
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm really trying to save you some frustration with the Tyranid learning curve.
It's the most common mistake I see in Tyranid lists. 

Ahhh... a challenger approaches.

Which is great, by the way. I'm no Nids Guru. I can tell you where I see flaws, but that doesn't mean I have the answers. I'm much more comfortable with Wolves and Nilla Marines (but aren't we all, really)? And I'm not trying to avoid the Nids learning curve. That's why I'm here. ;D

But I'm not sure that I'm totally buying what you're selling.

Saying that Hive Tyrants can be speed bumped or avoided is kind of an obviously true but irrelevant point. Any sort of nasty melee unit can be speed bumped or blocked, particularly if you can't put them in a Raider (Land or Flying/Pokey variety) to tankshock your way to the delivery point. It's just a lot harder to do this with two of them than one (just as it's harder to stop two Land Raiders than one).

I don't necessarily rely on the Gaunts carrying Close Combat. Against some things they will (I would throw them against Hammernators all day every day and smile at the exchange) and some things they won't. Gaunts serve a multitude of purposes, just like Gargoyles, and they need to be used correctly. Sometimes that will be as a sacrificial screen to setup a counter-charge, sometimes that will be as the torrent of attacks unit they are capable of being.

As I said in my post, you start to give up shooting to get close combat, and you have easily eliminated or avoided anti-mech. You go too far in the shooting direction, you can't kill shit in close combat. It's a dilemma to be sure. I'm trying to get ENOUGH shooting, that's all. Maybe it's too much, but I don't think having 7 anti-tank units can really be considered "too much."

Like I also said, Shrikes, Raveners or Genestealers are a direction I'm thinking in, but haven't gotten serious about yet. If you hadn't noticed, I think about things for a long time before I try them out on the table. I do read YTTH, Synaps3 and Midlife regularly (though honestly less on the Midlife). I remember when midlife ORIGINALLY posted his "Stuck on Swarmy" post (which he copied into the YTTH forum). If you think that two Tyrants are blockable, what do you think your opponent is going to do with a Swarmlord star? For the record I love the synergy between Swarmlord and Raveners. I think there is something there, I'm just not convinced it works even at 2k. Maybe.

I see Shrikes, Raveners and Genestealers as all being POTENTIAL answers to the question of melee capable harassers. But recently I've been seeing a lot of Warrior-stars which are certainly no better at their role than Hive Tyrants, can we not agree? Same problems, less expensive sure but also more vulnerable and without contributing much to the army as a whole (no Paroxysm, no Old Adversary).

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, far from it, but I think that you are missing what I'm saying - I see your points (which are valid), and don't think that any of the offerings you are pointing towards actually resolve the problems we are all aware of. Nids don't get the kind of intra-unit duality that many armies get, and as a result they struggle. It's just a fact.

I don't think that triple Trygons is the answer (something I think Synaps3 agrees with), and yes, I DO think that Nids can be made to outshoot a significant portion of armies out there. Why not? Because it's not fluffy? We need to be put down to be stopped, not stunned or shaken or weapon destroyed. And we can shoot on the move to full effect. That's powerful, man.

Plus 40k as a core ruleset encourages you to kill tanks with shooting. Just a fact. Any special rule that allows Nids to declare a second set of assaults after wrecking a transport in Close Combat? I guess they left that out of the codex... ;D

My list is specifically designed with these armies in mind (not saying I can beat them, mind, just saying I'm trying to):

Razorspam (of any flavor)
Dark Eldar Mech-spam
Mech-guard (though this is the worst matchup, imo).
Blood Angels Jumpers

What is the better army build that can take on ALL of those? I haven't seen it yet.

Anyways, I see your rebuttal and raise you one "show me the better path man." I'm not the guy with the answers, but I'm still not sure who is.

And having read through your latest forum posts over at YTTH, it SOUNDS like you are splitting your army up too much, and not deploying in the middle like you ought to. That's just my read on it, and I could be off. But how difficult is it for an opponent to move you out of where you want to be for quarters and objectives? Pretty damned difficult, as long as you can at least make a legitimate go at stopping his tank shocks. I think I'm going to have to do a post about the "golden triangle" of the NOVA missions.

I love the discussion man, keep it up.

Stay Eazy, Bro.